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May 23, 2005

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Daily dose of heresy #3 (The Trinity)

This is less of a heresy statement, per se, than just a new way to look at something. Still, I think it fits into the mold I have created for abstract thought about traditional theology on this Weblog.

In conversation this morning, a couple of us were struck with a fresh view of the Trinity (fresh to me, anyway, as I’m sure someone else has probably thought about it before). The Trinity, it seems, is probably the most difficult aspect of God to understand (let alone describe). People have come up with all sorts of analogies for how the Trinity works (from the three states of water to the blades on a ceiling fan) and, while they’re all valid attempts at explaining the unexplainable, they all seem to fall short.

But, what if there is little explanation that even needs to be done. What if all of this effort put into trying to describe how God is one but with three different “persons” (or “roles”) is completely unnecessary? (And, yes, I understand that God probably thinks that most of our humanly theological theorizing is unecessary, but that’s not the point here.)

Before I go any further, let me state the disclaimer that any percentage of “infinity” is still infinity (e.g., something that is forever will always be forever no matter how small you divide it.) This may seem a rather scientific way to begin a faith-based discourse, but I feel like it is important to make this clarification before moving on.

As Christians, we believe in one God (i.e., we are ““). Throughout the bible, though, God is spoken of as three different “persons”: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of these different persons seems to operate in different ways: among other things, God created the universe and set humanity into motion, Jesus taught us how to live and died for our sins, and the Holy Spirit was sent by God to indwell in us.

But, even though these persons seem separate, they are all one.

To accentuate the oneness of God, as well as the separation of the persons of God, read the following two verses from the ...

John 14:11 (NKJ):

Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 14:28 (NKJ)
You have heard Me say to you, “I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, “I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
In these two verses, Jesus is saying both that he is God and that his Father (God) is greater than he… Confusing, isn’t it? (And I’m just pulling from one chapter in the bible.)

This morning’s thought was this: What if the three persons of God are actually just different amounts of Himself (His power even), allowed for our (humanity’s) sake?

Take for example the creation of the Universe. God, as three persons in His entirety, used His full power to create everything we know as our existence (the planets, ecology, natural reproduction…life).

Genesis 1:26 (NKJ):

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Another “power” that God used time and time again was His ability to forgive His creation — throughout the Old Testament, God gives humanity second chances, just barely escaping complete and utter destruction.

(Here’s where I leave out all sorts of other parts of the bible to get to…)

Then, when Jesus was sent to us, we transitioned into a less substantial form of God’s power (at least from our perspective).

Matthew 16:16-17 (NKJ):

Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Jesus was a human begin who had to talk to God on a number of occasions. He was not only limited by his physical being (as all humans are), but by the fact that he was reliant on his Father God. Jesus, while he may have possessed the power of creation, never manifested it on Earth. Taking the accounts of Jesus’ miracles literally, it appears that he was able to heal the sick, feed the hungry, resurrect the dead… In the end, we are grateful that he had power over sin and was able to die in order that we may be redeemed.



After Jesus ascended into Heaven (God reclaiming part of his power perhaps?), we were sent a “Helper”: the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was given to those who believe in Jesus Christ (and therefor the Father). The Holy Spirit comes to indwell within us — to become one with us. He grants us wisdom, allows us to commune with God, and ultimately transforms our souls in preparation for Heaven.



John 16:5-7 (NKJ):

“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, “Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
The Holy Spirit, it seems, may have even less power over creation than Jesus and requires us to “act” in His behalf.

Trinity DiagramIn this way, we can look at God and the Trinity not as three separate persons, but three different levels of God’s power allowed to us, His creation. As you can see, I supplied a diagram to show what I’m saying in more visual terms. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one being: our Creator and Father; one God (all enclosed in one black circle). In the beginning, an all-powerful, all-knowing God (who consisted of God, Son, and Spirit) formed our world. When the time was right, God sent His son, Jesus, a part of Himself, who was human and limited. But Jesus, having full faith and communion with God (as God was Father and Spirit) still had power over his surroundings. In the end, we were given the Holy Spirit, a power that can only act through us, guiding our thoughts and actions back to God; for now, God and Son await our return.



In closing, I’d like to remind you of my original disclaimer:



Any percentage of infinity is still infinity.



What I mean by this is that just because God’s presence on Earth may be varied, limited forms of His power, it doesn’t mean that it is no longer God. God is still here, present with us as the Holy Spirit. While this may not be the power behind creation, or even redemption, it is still God. And, at any time, God can reinstate His full power right in our midst.



Matthew 24:42-44 (NKJ):

Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Other “Daily Doses”

Posted at 10:47 am

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Comments (35):
Have I ever been the first to comment on one of my own entries? Huh!

I came across an interesting article. It’s called “Three is not enough: Jewish Reflections on Trinitarian Tinking” and you can find the entire article here:

http://www.js.emory.edu/BLUMENTHAL/Trini..

Here’s the thought-provoking excerpt that took me to the article (found at PostModern Pilgrim’s Blog — his link is below — but it was written by Dr. David R. Blumenthal):

“Jewish rationalist hesitations notwithstanding, the question remains: If God’s being is plural, why only Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Why not Ineffability, Knowability, Intuition, Grace, Judgment, Compassion, Eternity, Awe, Fecundity, and Providence — all of which are equally integral to the divine whole? If we, who are complex beyond three, are created in God’s Image, God must be complex beyond three.”

That’s so deep. Wish I thought of it. ;-)

PostModern Pilgrim’s Blog is here:

http://pmpilgrim.blogspot.com/

timsamoff () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 1:01 pm

Those things that are mentioned in ineffiabilty are attributes that eminate from God but are not God in and of themselves. There seems to be a difference between the persons of the trinity and the power that eminates from the trinity. completely unnecessary? Maybe it is necessary?

DH () - May 23, 2005 at 1:44 pm

After rereading, Very interesting post. This concept “limited forms of His power”. This is hard for me to believe “God being limited” (other than on physical earth when Jesus was a human). Could the resurection from the dead and the other attiributes of Christ had, be the power of creation (power of God)? I kind of take comfort in the three natures or personalities of God. Not as seperate persons (persons being in the literal sense). However, you have made me think and I do appreciate the posts. “Any percentage of infinity is still infinity.”? Interesting like the song, “things that make you go hum” :) Wonderful post. keep it up. :)

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 2:02 pm

Maybe I should clarify that I don’t think God was/is limited, but that He limited Himself (e.g., God laid aside His deity to become human through Jesus Christ).

timsamoff () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 2:26 pm

Thanks for the clarification.
“laid aside His deity” I don’t know. Jesus was God incarnate and Christ therefore being at all times deity. That seems to be different than laying aside His deity. Was Christ limited? I’m coming around on this because of your interesting discussions. Christ did say (while on this earth) that he didn’t know the day or hour of His Second Coming. So He obviously “limited Himself” while on earth (His omniscience).

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 2:44 pm

Merriam-Webster defines “deity” as “the rank or essential nature of a god.” While on Earth, Jesus had neither of these — or, even if he did (spititually speaking), it was not recognized by Man. In this way, I believe that God laid down His deity… God knew that he would not be glorified on Earth, therefore His status as God was changed.

timsamoff () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 2:53 pm

Wasn’t the resurection of Christ, God being glorified on earth? Couldn’t Christ be deity at all times but with “limitations” as I stated earlier? I just feel that “Jesus was God incarnate”. His “limitations” on earth not degrading His Godhood.

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 3:17 pm

And I’m not saying that Jesus wasn’t God — just not all of God. And, going off of my “disclaimer,” I don’t think that only being part of God degrades anything (God is God no matter how thin you slice Him).

timsamoff () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 3:29 pm

Tim,
As I was reading the comments, I just thought of something. Maybe it’s not that the holy spirit is limited, but that we are the limitation. Because the HS works through us, we are the limitation on its power. In the Acts we can see the HS being wonderfully powerful when a group of Christ-minded followers are working and living together. Today we don’t have that so much—due to the limitations that our sinfulness and separate-ness place on the HS. Still working on this theory…
eml

Erica Lam () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 3:50 pm

Great observation, Erica. I like that!

timsamoff () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 3:54 pm

Forget the last sentence, without that last sentence I said, I think that is where we probably agree, to that point. :) I had issues with “lay aside deity” you had issues with “degrading Godhood”. I’m sorry for that last sentence, it promoted ambiguity.

DH () - May 23, 2005 at 4:03 pm

I will refrain this time but i’ll say this: Tim, i think i actually agree with you more than not on this. And DH is just… really an observant and so “reformed” thinking of a guy. Cool diologue. Erica as well, good observation. I would concurr.

dennis the menace () - May 23, 2005 at 4:05 pm

Liked your post…
I was thinking that maybe its not so much “limitations” but more of, when God puts on a human face it appears to be less God. Which was needed so we could understand how to be like him and imitate him.. Trying to live like God would be rediculous with out the example Christ gave us. I think saying God limits himself is wrong because it assumes Christ would have done other things besides what the Bible says. God had to become man which appears weaker but actually shows his strength.
another topic: Then that leads me to think that we are just as capable as Christ but not as consistant as him?...you don’t have to go there if you don’t want. sweet post!

Randy () - May 23, 2005 at 4:20 pm

I was looking at the math on your post. A third of infinity is infinity. You can never have a third of something that is infinite. Lets suppose each member of the trinity being infinity combined makes 3 times infintity? it still works the same way and hense 3 times infinity is still infinity.

To me it is amazing how the true definition of infinity correlates to the concept of montheism.
“You see me you have seen the Father”.

I really like your response Erica. Fabulous. :)

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 4:57 pm

Here is a math problem I solved that also explains my view:

(1/3 * infinity)- 33 years = infinity

Since we know Jesus has always been and always will be and is God.

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 5:24 pm

And then there’s how he became Darth Vader…. At least that has been revealed now too.

dennis the menace () - May 23, 2005 at 6:20 pm

Randy I liked what you said. “when God puts on a human face it appears to be less God.” When I said “limitations” I meant “limitations” in this way. “God had to become man which appears weaker but actually shows his strength.” I like what you say here, Randy. Hense the infinity math problems mentioned earlier. I think all of us would agree that Christ was the perfect example. While reducing God to math is kind of crude, it still helps me to understand the nature of God in three persons for me. Thanks for the clarification.

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 7:06 pm

I guess we can’t say that God or Jesus or the HS have less power because 1/3 of infinity is infinity. They all have equal power because each are infinite and combined they are infinite. We can’t say we have seen part of God because God is infinite. Therefore “when you have seen Me you have seen the Father.”

dh () - May 23, 2005 at 7:16 pm

I really like your “disclaimer” that any percentage of infinity is still infinity. Even 1/3 of an infinite God is still an infinite God. Wow! It adds a little more intuitive understanding of the Trinity for me. And thanks for the link.

PMPilgrim () (URL) - May 23, 2005 at 7:49 pm

nice, tim. i like the line of thought. however, a couple verses that sort of mix it up a bit (and rightly so, for how could we ever truly comprehend something infinitely beyond us):

John 14:9- Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, “Show us the Father’?

Colossians 1:15-18 (speaks to the question of Jesus’ creative powers)- He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

and of course, john 1:1-5 is always worth pondering, “the Word” being considered to be Jesus.

anyways, good stuff. to speak strongbadically, im “all up ons.” peace.

jared () - May 23, 2005 at 10:07 pm

The Trinity is like unto the Shamrock…

St. Patrick () - May 23, 2005 at 10:16 pm

I just love how conversation continues here while I’m away from my computer. Thanks everyone.

Randy, et al ~ I am still going to stick to using the word “limitations.” Personally, I don’t think that Jesus had the “power” of God while he was on Earth — I think that he was a limited part of God yet still God. This being said, I think that God could have manifested in His entirety if it was something that needed to happen…

> I think saying God limits himself
> is wrong because it assumes Christ
> would have done other things
> besides what the Bible says

To me, this sounds like God does limit Himself — otherwise, Jesus would have been unlimited and therefore would have done “other things.” This might need a little clarification for me to understand better what you mean.

> Then that leads me to think that
> we are just as capable as Christ
> but not as consistant as him?

I would agree with this statement — Christ even said we would do greater things than he did (John 14:12).

DH ~ Too much math… I just meant than no matter how much or how little power God chooses to grant us, the power is always still God’s.

> I guess we can’t say that God
> or Jesus or the HS have less
> power because 1/3 of infinity
> is infinity.

Here’s where I tend to disagree… As I just said, I believe the power is all God’s. What I don’t think is that the different “persons” of God possess all of God’s power… But, this is still something I am trying to work out — God can use all of His power at anytime, but He can also limit the power He gives to us, etc. (as I have already said).

Jared ~ The first verse you supplied just seems to agree with my statement… Jesus is God, so seeing him is seeing the Father. This doesn’t change my theory in the least.

Likewise, the second verse is a great example of what I mean… When God created the Earth, He was in His entirety (Father, Son, Spirit). In this way, yes, Jesus created the Earth. But, while Jesus was on Earth (separate from God), I don’t believe he “created” anything that was not already in existence.

Speaking of John 1:1-5… The Word is Jesus. The Word of God (created by?). The Word is the law (Jesus did not come to judge, but the Word judges). It’s all very confusing, yet I don’t think it wavers from this theory.

St. Patrick ~ The Shamrock idea is much like the ceiling fan… Works, but doesn’t really tell us anything. I’d love to hear you ellaborate.

timsamoff () (URL) - May 24, 2005 at 08:27 am

Wow, Jared “how could we ever truly comprehend something infinitely beyond us”. Great point. I like the disclaimer but the conclusions seem to go against the disclaimer. Hense my previous post.

DH () - May 24, 2005 at 08:29 am

Something I forgot to add to my last comment… I think God’s power is proven even moreso by His ability to limit it — for only someone immature in their power (and under the control of the power) would use it to the full extent (e.g., Satan? — imagine a good “Church Lady” impression there).

timsamoff () (URL) - May 24, 2005 at 09:08 am

cool cool.

dh- uh, thanks, but i wasnt drawing any concrete conclusions, hence the disclaimer. just threw out some verses that i thought were relavant.

tim- sorry if i came across wrong, i wasnt trying to challenge your theory. i just think those verse blur all the lines a bit, which is what i was getting at. sorry if it was merely redundant. next time i’ll try to be more expository.

cheers, all : )

jared () - May 24, 2005 at 11:37 am

Hey, Jared ~ That’s what these comments are for: challenging, thinking, learning, etc. Hopefully, people don’t take what I say as a “concrete conclusion” either! ;-)

As for the verses… I was merely trying to show how they do fit with the theory (in my mind, anyway). That’s all.

timsamoff () (URL) - May 24, 2005 at 11:57 am

I guess a good question would be: Do you consider the fact that Jesus had to be human the equivalent of God limiting himself? I personally don’t think he limited himself I think there were “rules” in place. Jesus had to be human to die for our sins… so the only limitations were the rules set before the beginning of time.
As for the limiting stuff…Anything I think of thats limited=being held back…So if you say Christ was held back then I disagree.(i know you would disagree too buts that just my logic)

randy () - May 24, 2005 at 12:10 pm

I don’t know if I would disagree, Randy… I think that by being human, God was limiting himself: limited to 33 years on Earth, limited to all of the things that the human body must endure, limited to the temptation of sin, etc. These are not things that God must endure.

What we can get from this is that even with these human-bound limitations, Christ was able to have a direct connection with God in a way that allowed him to perform miracles and change peoples’ hearts.

timsamoff () (URL) - May 24, 2005 at 12:19 pm

whoooaaa!!! This just reinforces the complexity of the trinity.
It was definitely his destiny to die for our sins no matter what limitations he had….oooh no now I brought up predestination… good discussion, can’t keep up with it at work. lata

Randy () - May 24, 2005 at 12:56 pm

Actually, to be precise, the ceiling fan analogy is much like the Shamrock one, which I came up with centuries ago. Give a guy some credit, eh?!

St. Patrick () - May 24, 2005 at 1:27 pm

Ha ha ha! Sorry, St. Patrick, you are definitely right on that one! ;-)

timsamoff () (URL) - May 24, 2005 at 1:58 pm

Great posts everybody. I am 5-6 months late…but oh well..lol
I have not seen this Bible verse quoted yet. Maybe I’m wrong, but this seems to support Tim’s view that Christ limited Himself while on Earth doing His Father’s will.

Phillipians 2:5 (NASB)
“5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.”

So did Christ claim equality with the Father while on Earth? I believe quite the contrary. Another verse which implies that Christ was lesser than His Father (lesser in His ability in that He took on the limitations of humantity?) is (I know Tim quoted this one already, but it deserves a re-post:-)):

John 14:28 (NIV) (can you tell I like various versions of the Written Word of God??)
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”

I think the above quoted scripture clearly points out that Jesus Himself claimed that He was lesser to some degree than His Father.

Anyway, Tim, you have made my head hurt a bit from thinking about all of this (hopefully its not too obvious that my head hurts by the way I post), so thanks! :-)

Mikey () - October 20, 2005 at 03:36 am

Thanks for the great comment, Mikey… Funny thing — I am going to post something today that references some of your thoughts. Also, I recently posted something that totally plays off of these verses, but it was lost when my site was hacked (so sad). Still, thanks for bringing those verses into this!

timsamoff () (URL) - October 20, 2005 at 08:26 am

Remember it says “likeness of man”. I feel that while on earth Christ was fully man but I also feel Christ was fully God. While on earth Christ was considered a little lower than God in form. I guess I fel Randy worded this well. I feel God, by loving us, had to take on this form “Jesus had to be human to die for our sins… so the only limitations were the rules set before the beginning of time.” Also, we forget about Christ being the perfect Sacrifice. Is man perfect? no It could only take Christ being God to even have the ability to do this.

dh () - October 20, 2005 at 09:51 am

It gets problematic to take away the deity of Christ by overemphesizing the humanity of Christ while on earth. It is also problematic to overemphesize the Deity of Christ and deemphesizing the form of humanity Christ took on. It doesn’t have to be either or for Christ was equally both. I feel the “equality with God” is referring to His human form or else the temptations would not have been able to be overcome.

dh () - October 20, 2005 at 09:56 am

  
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