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June 21, 2006
Good quote to ponder...
Dallas Willard, speaking of Christians:We have overdone experience and have underdone growth.From "Vision: The Cooperative Friends of Jesus - Part 4 of 6" at Radio Allelon.
(Which, by the way, I could have pulled a hundred good quotes from, so go listen -- to the entire series, in fact!)
Posted at 06:26 am
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Comments (9):
I’m back!
Dennis the Menace () - June 21, 2006 at 11:13 am
Oh, Lord, have mercy. 
timsamoff () (URL) - June 21, 2006 at 12:32 pm
seems like typical overdone fudagelical jingoism to me.
:: peder ::
:: peder ::
p.e.horner () (URL) - June 21, 2006 at 10:40 pm
Care to explain, Peder? I mean, I know I didn’t put the quote into any context, but I can’t tell if you’re referring the quote, the entire Dallas Willard seminar, or the comments.
timsamoff () (URL) - June 22, 2006 at 06:40 am
Sorry. I just read that with a little too much cynicism, especially without any context. I wish I had time to listen to the whole sermon.
:: peder ::
:: peder ::
p.e.horner () (URL) - June 22, 2006 at 10:13 am
I figured as much…. Although, you should know that anything Dallas Willard says is probably far from “fudagelical jingoism.” 
Putting it a little more into context (and only as one example, of course), he was referring to how most Christians overemphasize the conversion experience — even to the point of disregarding the life-journey that follows. With this quote, one of the things Willard was attempting to do was to demystify the conversion experience for those who might place too much importance on it (i.e., some people can’t even recall a single, conversion experience, but know they are true follower’s of Christ).
Putting it a little more into context (and only as one example, of course), he was referring to how most Christians overemphasize the conversion experience — even to the point of disregarding the life-journey that follows. With this quote, one of the things Willard was attempting to do was to demystify the conversion experience for those who might place too much importance on it (i.e., some people can’t even recall a single, conversion experience, but know they are true follower’s of Christ).
timsamoff () (URL) - June 22, 2006 at 10:39 am
“...even to the point of disregarding the life-journey that follows.” I know no Believer (except for possibly back-slidding Believers) who does this type of disregarding. When looking at discipleship as the life journey that began at conversion (whether single or not) you can see that it isn’t disregarded. I will say I know some people (not you) who can’t pin-point a single conversion who told me that they went ahead and “invited Jesus in their heart” even though they knew they were a Believer but at the same time didn’t have a “single conversion” experience. To some Believers it may seem redundant but in all of my conversations with these type of people they all shared a greater sense of definitivness (word?) for them than otherwise. I hope you understand. Those in the minority who seem to “disregard the life-journey” all together fall into what Paul says in Romans 6:1-3. It gives the impression (not that it is the case) of only being a “head change” without a “heart change”.
I hope you understand. This wasn’t meant to knock non-single conversion people but giving insight into how many people who had the non-single conversion experience benefited from something additional in their walk with Christ. It still is hard for me to understand non-single conversion being that Paul talks about all Believers at one time being non-Believers and then becoming Believers but that is not to say I’m against it. It isjust I can’t understand it. I know that it is okay not to understand something but for me the most important is that people “Confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and Believer in their heart that God has risen from the dead” whether thatis single or non-single conversion.
I hope you understand. This wasn’t meant to knock non-single conversion people but giving insight into how many people who had the non-single conversion experience benefited from something additional in their walk with Christ. It still is hard for me to understand non-single conversion being that Paul talks about all Believers at one time being non-Believers and then becoming Believers but that is not to say I’m against it. It isjust I can’t understand it. I know that it is okay not to understand something but for me the most important is that people “Confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and Believer in their heart that God has risen from the dead” whether thatis single or non-single conversion.
dh () - June 22, 2006 at 3:06 pm
Wow, Doug. Your first sentence was both very closed-minded and judgemental… Even for you!
Never say “never”...
Personally, I know MANY Christians who would say that the conversion experience is the most important moment in their faith (notice that I didn’t say “disregard…altogether” as you have said — I was using the term “disregard” to mean “make unimportant”).
You also said this:
> I will say I know some people
> (not you) who can’t pin-point
> a single conversion
Well, I don’t know what you remember about my story, but I am one of those people who can’t pinpoint a single moment. In fact, I’ve asked Chrsit to be my savior on many occasions — even very recently.
Never say “never”...
Personally, I know MANY Christians who would say that the conversion experience is the most important moment in their faith (notice that I didn’t say “disregard…altogether” as you have said — I was using the term “disregard” to mean “make unimportant”).
You also said this:
> I will say I know some people
> (not you) who can’t pin-point
> a single conversion
Well, I don’t know what you remember about my story, but I am one of those people who can’t pinpoint a single moment. In fact, I’ve asked Chrsit to be my savior on many occasions — even very recently.
timsamoff () (URL) - June 22, 2006 at 7:53 pm
I wasn’t trying to be harsh, judgemental or closed-minded on this at all. I honestly don’t know anyone who “makes unimportant” their “life journey” after conversion. Hense, “When looking at discipleship as the life journey that began at conversion (whether single or not) you can see that it isn’t disregarded.” I was sharing with you how (rephrasing it to what I was trying to say) that just because people state the conversion experience as being the most important moment in their faith (myself included) doesn’t mean and in a super majority way that they place the life journey thereafter as unimportant or that it is “made to be unimportant” (i.e “make unimportant”).
With regard to my conversations with those without a single conversion the “not you” was meant to be “not referring to you”. You might not be aware that I have spoke with other people besides yourself who happen to have no single conversion. Hense my statement of sharing their experience (not mine) of how “...that they went ahead and “invited Jesus in their heart” even though they knew they were a Believer but at the same time didn’t have a “single conversion” experience.”
I was saying this more from a sharing of life expereince of people. If you reread what I said in its entirety you can see what I was trying to get at.
I thought what I said would benefit those without a single conversion by using actual people in the same category and stating their experience and benefit of what I described therein.
If I honestly don’t know I honestly don’t know. If what I said was judgemental and closed-minded then “most Christians overemphasize the conversion experience—even to the point of disregarding the life-journey that follows.” is the same. I never used theterm never I said “I know no one who..”
An overemphesis on conversion doesn’t mean a deemphesis of life journey. From my experience with fellow believers I have seen what I stated earlier.
With regard to my conversations with those without a single conversion the “not you” was meant to be “not referring to you”. You might not be aware that I have spoke with other people besides yourself who happen to have no single conversion. Hense my statement of sharing their experience (not mine) of how “...that they went ahead and “invited Jesus in their heart” even though they knew they were a Believer but at the same time didn’t have a “single conversion” experience.”
I was saying this more from a sharing of life expereince of people. If you reread what I said in its entirety you can see what I was trying to get at.
I thought what I said would benefit those without a single conversion by using actual people in the same category and stating their experience and benefit of what I described therein.
If I honestly don’t know I honestly don’t know. If what I said was judgemental and closed-minded then “most Christians overemphasize the conversion experience—even to the point of disregarding the life-journey that follows.” is the same. I never used theterm never I said “I know no one who..”
An overemphesis on conversion doesn’t mean a deemphesis of life journey. From my experience with fellow believers I have seen what I stated earlier.
dh () - June 23, 2006 at 08:41 am
